Unimog Club UK
General Topics Forums => General Banter! => Topic started by: njc110381 on March 01, 2013, 01:40:12 pm
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Thank you for the link. I'll have a look at that later on when I'm not up and down cooking dinner.
The law coming down on me is just what I'm worried about. Even in cases like this, not being in the know is no excuse. I personally feel that's a bit harsh, but it is what it is. We all know the government doesn't like being diddled out of their (our) money. I just wish there was some give and take - if I pay my tax bill a day late I get fined £100, but if I get a rebate it should turn up at some point in the next couple of weeks but if it doesn't you can ring them and they'll look into it for you. A perfect example of double standards in my mind!
Most of the use I have for the vehicle is off road, about 90% I'd say. But I think the fact that I want to now and again move a load of gravel or sand for my landscaping jobs wipes out the chance of using it as a tractor. What I have to sit and work out is whether it's worth running it as a LGV so I can do that or whether it would be cheaper to keep my pickup and have the mog as agri. If I run it as a lorry then it's no red, ever. Running it in the woods for a week on white isn't cheap or fair!
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Go here
https://www.dvla.gov.uk/dvla/forms/onlineleaflets.aspx
and click on V355/1 this is near the bottom of the page.
Once you have downloaded the form read section 11 and 11.1 on page 7 which gives details of the taxation class and limitations of use.
There is no minimum speed limit on UK motorways but you can be charged with dangerous driving if you are driving to slow which can cause a hazard to other drivers.
When I bought my 406 from London and headed for the M25, I realised that I had made a huge mistake. When I gave the vehicle full throttle in top gear I was only able to achieve 40mph according to my sat nav (very worn throttle linkage which is now fixed) I had artics shooting past me like I was stood still and I couldn't wait to get to the first exit to get off. I also believe that a tractor according to the info above should not be used on the motorway at all.
Make sure that if you are on the road that you are using your vehicle for one of the reasons listed. If not the hand of the law will come down on you.
I hope this helps.
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A lot of people close there eye because of all the rules. if they want you they will have you :(. Technically you could take a mog on a motorway as they are able to go over the 27mph mini speed on the motorway, and has air brakes.
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That makes sense really. The trouble with all these laws are that they are to some degree open to interpretation by the man you meet on the day. If you get a friendly fella who just wants to do an honest days work then you're most likely fine, but stumble across a little weed on a power trip and you've had it. They'll find something if it takes them all day!
For motorway use I suppose you should be registered as a light truck rather than a tractor? When I get one maybe I should put it through a mock MOT? For my own peace of mind for one, but in another way it could tell me how much it's likely to cost to run as an LGV.
I'm starting to think that way because for a few hundred quid a year it's going to give peace of mind when I'm taking a load of gravel to do a customers drive.
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This is why so many people just got rid of there mogs coz its a mine field :(
This is not just to do with mogs, it covers tractors in general, a unimog is classed as a tractor, and this subject covers tractors, it doesnt matter weather you get a grey furgy, A massive fendt, or a unimog, these rules still apply.
Infact if anything mogs are better than tractors as they meet construction and use, so they are able to pass an mot if they had to, and in theory can even drive up and down the motorway, although that again is a grey area. so compared with your average tractor a unimog is a rolls royce. Unimogs also do get more leeway from police and vosa, due to the fact that they dont really understand what it is, dwe got pulled up once and were running on red, and the guy just said to get going because unimogs were that much of a complicated topic he couldnt be bothered with it.
the way we were told by a man who was actually a professional in this subject years ago (unfortunately he died :( ) as long as the product in the vehicle isnt classed as goods, so your not delivering it to a customer (just taking it back to the yard), then you are perfectly fine.
We ran red for years, and were never done, either cause we were in the right or by chance, i dont know.
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It's all stupid. And not easy to follow. Oh and farmers could register an artic as agricultural and run on red if they carry from field to farm.
Yeah I'd look into tacho's but I'm not sure on there details as i dont have anything to do with tacho's lol
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I don't get why a tractor can't be used to carry goods? How much stuff can you actually get in the average tractor?! If they were to place these rules just on trailers over a certain weight that would do for the hauliers without messing the small time traders about.
It sounds like if I put as much as a bag of compost in one I'm breaking the law even running on white. On a positive note though initial looks at running a 7.5t truck doesn't look as scary as I'd imagined. A few quid more than a 3.5t pickup in fact.
So the tacho is the next thing to read up on? Great! ::)
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To be honest i don't know what the penalty is for it? I heard somone say It's 2 offences and £500 fine?? If I'm not mistaken your into the tacho mine field!
It annoys me that farmers can get away with murder yet when a few mogs carry chip or timber we get shot down for it ???
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It is tempting to just load up with cherry and crack on. The number of police there are around the lanes here I'd pay more in white diesel costs than I would in fines, but that's not really the way to go. You've only got to get caught once and you've educated a whole load of them and spoiled it for everyone.
There are a lot of arb folk who just can't be doing with mogs and I'm beginning to see why. I think I'm going to sit and try to work out how much it would cost to run one as a 7.5t truck, but something tells me that isn't going to be cheap! It's not the fuel that's the issue - I can see tax and insurance being a real killer.
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I doubt you would ever be pulled having a flail in a paddock. Most livery yards are still paid as agricultural land.
This is why so many people just got rid of there mogs coz its a mine field :(
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Towed machine is different, you're not actually driving it on the road - it's not a vehicle.
I'm not sure if paddocks are agricultural? I guess they should be, but then does a horse count as livestock or a domestic pet? I have no idea!
I did read somewhere that an operators license isn't required for machines that are fitted with implements. That can be as little as a winch on the bumper!
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Yeah farmers are a law to them self. I knew you couldn't run red in mowing vehicles as you said but I would of thought paddocks are still agricultural?? But i'd not come across red only being used on forestryland. Does that mean you can't run red in a towed chipper??
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I've spent the last hour reading VOSA and DVLA documents and it seems farmers are ok to do pretty much whatever they want. They can haul building materials as long as it's for use on their property and they can transport their stock to market or waste to a disposal facility. Contractors can also haul goods from one part of a farm to another as long as it's for the same land owner and and the materials being hauled are either needed for the job they're doing (ie muck spreading) or are the product of the work going back to another part of the land for the same land owner (ie bales, grain etc).
Red diesel cannot be used in an agricultural tractor used for tree surgery or mowing unless the trees/verges are bordering public roads or are on land designated as forestry. So going to someones garden to cut their tree down or cut their lawn (and possibly paddock, not sure) is excluded unless the vehicle to be used on the property is trailered to the site and isn't used on the road, ie compact tractor mower, digger etc.
Whether the vehicle needs to be taxed other than agricultural I'm not sure. But it looks like the use of red is a no go for me, even when on site in domestic cases.
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Your right, there's no issue going around a site and moving it but ots when you go onto the public highways. I think the issues are the same with timber as with chip. If you say you have bought it is that still not haulage as there 2 different jobs?
I'd be interested 2 know what ur copper mate would do/say about it. Could also ask vosa?
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I'm pretty sure it's not haulage if you're moving your own stuff from one part of your ground to another. It's when you move something for someone else it becomes a problem. I'm thinking logs for my burner wouldn't be an issue but chip might be because I'm charging to remove it. Maybe I could invoice to say the job cost more than I quoted then purchase the chip from them (discounting down to the agreed price) for my own use?!
I've never been stopped to check my diesel etc in my life, but I'm sure if I got a mog and did it wrong I soon would!
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one other thing i did wonder, which was to late when i got mine was when its registered (v5 document) put it as a personal vehicle, and not under a company name like i did?? least if your pulled and you say you carrying you could say it is for personal use??
i have heard of digger drivers being pulled for carrying. they had the spare bucket and signs in the front bucket.
tractors arent suposed to carry load apart from equipment on the linkage but how come farmers drive loadalls with silage or hay bales on the front?!? aaahhhhaaaah :o :D
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well he's a rare rozzer, most of them dont have a clue, although i have heard rumors that theyre getting training now. if its personal use your fine. and i dont blame him for pulling tractors with diggers on, truck drivers with diggers on the back pay there dues, why shouldnt tractor drivers?
moose says this is what he THINKS the rules are:
You can take the load back to your yard, tip it on the floor, then sell it from the premises.
you can not, take it back to the yard, tip it of, then load it back on to the mog and deliver it. or deliver straight to the customer.
basically if you want to make deliveries by a pickup ;)
regarding the delivery on a trailer hes not sure but thinks you can, but its a very grey area. :-\
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What got me worried was a copper mate of mine who pulled me up on it when I mentioned my plans. He knows, so how many more of them do? The chip would genuinely be coming back to my home address for composting, and the timber would be for use in my woodburner. I wouldn't be selling any of it on.
Apparently my mate is always booking contractors who tow a diggers around with fastracks. A bit harsh really, but the government don't like missing out on revenue!
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i'll get back to you on this one when the moose is free.
As far as im aware, with logs you cant sell them of the back of a mog registered as a tractor and running on red, but if your selling them of a trailer on the back of a mog registered as a tractor and running on red then your perfectly fine... how ridiculous is that.
Everybody puts chip in the back though, youd need to have a really clued up police officer to know, its vosa that will get you. as long as youre taking it back to your yard, i dont think they can do anything. but dont call it waste, rubbish etc cause then you have to have a waste handlers license, and dont go dropping it of at a mates, cause thats still haulage.
its the same with these tractors you see that have great 360 diggers on low loaders attached to the back, hire and reward. and when you get contrators running as a tractor hauling cow turds from one location to another, again its still haulage, its such a grey area, very few people know about it. :-\
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DELETE... DELETE!!!!! That's the screams I hear every time I bring this up! :D
Ok. I guess the next question then would be how much is tax and an MOT on a mog? That's assuming it doesn't need anything done! I'm going to need to carry stuff regularly.
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Quick brian where's the delete button!!! :o ;D
So far as I know, yes u can run a mog set up like mine on red. U can run it on red with implements on ie chipper, flail mower, plough ect. Once u add chip into the chip box and drive it on the road ur hauling so would need everything covering a wagon ie road tax, white diesel and licence if gross over 7.5t. Think it changes if u say its for personal but u would ave to prove it which is whete they will get u. Way round it is put chip and wood in a trailer ;D it solves the problems and can run on red ;D
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I've started this topic because I've read so many different answers I really don't know how it works? I figured Moose would be the man to ask as he's about as experienced in these matters as anyone I know of!
As a tractor it can run on red when working? On the road between home and the job it should also be ok and can also be driven as a tractor on a standard 3.5t driving license?
Once a load of chip or timber is in the back it becomes haulage right? So no red? But there will obviously be traces of red because the vehicle will have worked on site at some point and nobody runs a chipper on white surely?! If the chip/timber is going back home for personal use it's not really hire or reward, or is it?
When that load is being transported can the mog still run as an ag vehicle, or does that change and it needs to be taxed/insured as a lorry? If that's the case I'll need to take a 7.5t test and also MOT the mog?
It's so bloody confusing and the fines are huge. I don't want to get it wrong!