Unimog Club UK
Hello New Members => Introduce Yourself => Topic started by: Tom on March 12, 2017, 07:20:29 pm
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No separate the difflocks it won't harm anything the later Unimogs had this. Over articulation of the torque tube will damage the cv joint this is achieved by allowing the axle to drop so exceeding the cv joint.
Moose
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Moose,
Sorry, I wasn’t clear, this is a bush truck so will be driven off-road primarily. Here wood is cut mostly in the winter when the ground is frozen. The rest of the year, if not timed well, the trails can be soft. Patches of bog and thixotropic clay can catch you out and there is also the damage done to the trail that will quickly turn an access trail into a river. Forestry tractors with 4wd usually have a locking back axle to minimize trail damage.
The 411’s on the other hand were originally equipped with only the option to lock both axles. Is there a reason for this? Could it cause damage by only locking the rear? It’s a quick and easy fix to add two more valves for the actuators, but it could be expensive if it blows an expensive component.
The manuals don’t cover the axle/chassis clearance but as Brian pointed out, getting it wrong could damage the torque tubes. With hybrid like mine, it’s hard to guess what’s going to be a solution and what’s going to cause an expensive problem.
Cheers,
Tom
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you should put the rear difflock in when traction is reduced if you put it in when traction is good you run the risk of damage, best way to see if anything is an issue with axle clearance is take the front springs off.
Moose
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OK Moose & Brian,
One of the hazards of buying a “Hybrid” is that the factory manuals can only tell you what it was before it was played with. That’s why all your help is so valuable and appreciated.
I slopped around in the slushy snow today and confirmed to myself that the distance between the axle and the chassis bumper is approximately the same as the height of the block under the spring. Therefore if I cut the block off, the chassis will sit on the axle – more or less. Obviously not a good situation.
It also appears that the oil pan will not hit the axle before the chassis does. Though I have to admit that my measurements were cursory because I was getting a lot of wet snow down the back of my pants and as I have mentioned before I am a wimp.
The weather report for the next 10 days is mostly above freezing and dry, if the weatherman can be trusted. So when it dries up a bit, I’ll pull the springs off and measure them. (he says with unwarranted confidence).
In the meantime, what do you think of running in 4wd with the back axle locked? Is there a Mog issue with it?
Thanks for all your help.
Cheers,
Tom
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Hi Tom,
Just a quick note, in the pics the front left hub is missing it's breather hose (You can see the clamp that holds it to the top king-pin) it's very important that this is fitted, especially in off-road situations, I would check the front right also to make sure it's got the hose fitted as well.
Cheers, Brian
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The dampers won't make a difference to spring rates just control of the springs. The sump on a OM 636 has a front mount sump that sits over the differential if your going to put a snow plugs on the front you need the heavy front springs ( I have some in stock ) they are very stiff with no load.
Regarding the sump all I can think is did they do that engine with a front mount sump or modify the one you have now.
Moose
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Moose
Thanks for the explanation. I’ve been thinking a lot about it and the application to my particular Mog hybrid. I’m starting to worry about the clearance between the Nissan engine and the axle. I’ve attached some pictures.
The first pic shows the oil pan and diff. The most important question is; how much clearance is there with a stock engine? If the blocks are removed and as you say the dampers have a soft compression there could be damage to the oil pan especially if there was a load on the front, like a snow plow.
You can see by the pictures that even though the springs are blocked up in front, the dampers are in the original mountings. Also, there are rubber bumpers which I don’t think are standard. That leads me to think that it was done to prevent damage. The current bumpers are made from old conveyor belting with a 6 cm gap to the axle. This solution is better than nothing but, not much. I think that at a minimum they need to be replaced by polyurethane bumpers/pads. The problem would be that if the steel lifts are removed, there’s not going to be any clearance.
What would you suggest to avoid some sort of catastrophic failure?
Also, since the diff locks are already converted to air; Is it a good idea to operating in 4wd with only the rear axle locked? Some of the places I’ll be using the Mog have 1 or 2 k’s of steep uphill slogging. In a tractor it’s the way to go but what about Mog’s? Could it cause problems?
Thanks for your help.
Cheers,
Tom
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They are the same front and rear, the compression is light and re bound is heavy Unimogs have heavy axles to overall weight
Moose
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That pretty much sums it up. Apparently there was very little damage, he was ok and they carried on, so all was well. The only issue he had, and the reason for a lot of mucking about when it went over, is that the engine wouldn't turn off. Apparently he had to select a high gear and stall it?
Back on the original topic, I look forward to seeing your progress with your new 411. I really like the older Unimogs. That's where my interest lies and seeing them working is just fantastic. I must say though, driving Moose's 1450 brought a whole new experience of comfort and power compared to my 406!
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It sounds like a momentary lack of judgement compounded by taking bad advice from the guy guiding. Then it became a lesson for others in how not to do it.
Learning from YouTube is great until you become the focus of attention.
Cheers,
Tom
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I know the old owner of that U1000 in the video. He was the first person ever to take me around an off road site in a Unimog - that Unimog! Tom was his name, a chap with lots of interest in everything unusual. I think he sold the Unimog and bought an old American Chevy pickup when he got bored of off roading.
It's a shame he tied it to that tree. I'm pretty sure it would have made it down there fine without the hindrance of that winch line pulling him over.
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30 years of mugging and as soon as you move cameras are out 😀😀 and god forbid you should get stuck 😀😀
Moose
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Moose
Point taken on the oil.
Ref the video, I know that if it happened to me, a crowd would materialize with their iPhone's out. 5 minutes and everyone in the county would know and it would be on the evening news. Must remember to pay attention.
Cheers,
Tom
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Seen this video this wasn't far from me I think why he put that rope on I don't know 😀😀😀if your gonna be using it off road stick with standard oil and change it regularly that way if it's contaminated it's cheap to replace.
Moose
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Moose
Thanks a lot for the clarifications.
This is a bush truck, but I plan on keeping it going for a long time so I am very interested in babying it along. I thought the synthetic oil might be better protection. Oil’s and filters aren’t the place to cut corners.
We’ll be bumbling along at tractor speeds as it’ll add minutes rather than hours to any on road journeys. Offroad is what it’ll be doing most. I just don’t want to end up like the guy in the video, there’d be no living that down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O46LFB-S7RM
Thanks for your help.
Cheers,
Tom
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Sorry not very clear at the moment got loads of work on at the moment, the dampers are the same front and rear on 411 the original Unimog dampers are set for heavy rebound to control a heavy axle under a light vehicle it's not something you have to worry about. If your existing dampers are knackered you will notice a massive difference in the way she'll drive.
On a 411 synthetic oil will only release a little power due to less friction not worth it on a 411 just regular oil change will do.
Moose
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Moose
I have been checking E Bay and elsewhere and the Monroe’s were the only ones that actually said they were “heavy duty” there doesn’t seem to be too much clarification out there. Some sites specify the same for front and rear and others that they might be different.
Sorry to be so clueless but what do you mean by “the valves for the unsprung weight”? Whiles I’m at it you mentioned synthetic oil for the hubs, I can’t seem to find anything on the site about that.
Thanks for your help.
Cheers,
Tom
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The Monroes will be fine fore your application the Sachs will be better suited to you unimog as original fitment so will be valves for the unsprung weight of your unimog but you'll be fine with monroes I can't confirm there the correct ones as I've never ordered them.
Moose
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I’ve been checking out new dampers and the price varies wildly:
Monroe V2038 - about £46 + shipping
SACHS 975 001 - about £135 + shipping
As near as I can tell both options should work but can someone confirm this? Also, are all four dampers the same?
This Mog will be in semi-retirement like the owner so won’t pushed anywhere near as hard as originally intended. Plus I’m cheap. So are the Monroe’s good enough for a more relaxed operating lifestyle?
Thanks again for your help.
Cheers,
Tom
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Thanks Moose,
There’s some Monroe dampers that seem to be OK:
Verstärkte Stoßdämpfer für Typ Unimog 411-2010-421
Der Marke Monroe Original Van-Magnun für Ihren Unimog 401-411-2010-421.
Reinforced shock absorbers for type Unimog 411-2010-421
The brand Monroe Original Van-Magnun for your Unimog 401-411-2010-421.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Unimog-Stosdampfer-421-401-411-2010-/142319812095?hash=item2122ebfdff:g:kpsAAOxyoA1RXKLx
I have to brush up on my German, I can order beer but that’s about the limit.
Thanks for your help.
Cheers,
Tom
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There for sale on eBay.de I can get them but your in Norway so prob cheaper for you to source you can use Land Rover series dampers make sure there the heavy duty ones 😊
Moose
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Moose,
You’re right – I don’t know what I was thinking. The manuals I found online say that the springs should be +/- 5 mm within specs. Not really realistic. Dampers are the right thing to do for this 411’s semi-retirement. It’ll never be pushed as hard as it was originally designed for. Do you have any favorite damper make or supplier?
I dug it out this morning and from what I can tell, the blocks were added on the front axle to compensate for worn dampers rather than clearance for the new engine. Removing them will prevent problems with the torque tube angle like Brian says.
Thanks for your help.
Cheers,
Tom
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Hello tom don't waste money on new springs put new damper on her to keep it under control. Loving the tractor
Moose
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Phil,
Thanks for your explanation, I tried it and unfortunately now I am locked out of even 1st & 2nd. That leads me to believe that it’s the plate you and Brian talk about. However, since I am such a wimp, I will leave that until the howling wind and slush storm clear up. I will be very careful about leveling the gear box.
A large part of the issue is that the truck has been heavily modified by an eccentric previous owner. Brian was right, the diff-lock is now air actuated. The air receiver is an old fire extinguisher that seems to be quite a bit smaller than the original. The hydraulic pump is directly driven off the Nisan diesel engine and from what I can see there are 3 reservoirs. The plumbing is a pile of spaghetti run through the cab and chassis so I don’t know, maybe there’s a reason for this. (pic attached)
I really don’t know where it came from originally but a scratch test shows the lowest paint coat to be green suggesting that it was in somebodies army. The guy I bought it from had it for a year and the guy he bought it from got it in ’85.
Casto, the wooden blocks in the picture were put in there when I tried first towing on the trailer. It bounced and rolled so much I drove blocks in between the axles and chassis then strapped them together. It rode pretty nice then. Coming back over the mountains in the blizzard could have proved to be a problem otherwise.
I’ve downloaded a bunch of pictures, manuals and anything else I can find to see if I can figure out what is original and what clever modifications were made. Brian was right, it is a long wheelbase, I didn’t realize the difference between long and short wheelbase is only 40cm.
I can’t complain, it is what it is and I got it cheap (by Norwegian standards). Things like the electrics will probably just ripped out and started again new. All the brakes will be done as Brian says. For now I think that the only things I think I will have to find a good source for are springs. Just judging by the way it bounced and swayed on the trailer, I think they’re due for replacement.
There’s quite a bit of panel replacement required and I will reinforce the cut-outs on the chassis cross member, but welding isn’t an issue. Fortunately I’ve got lots of degreaser so should be able to find out what hydraulics are leaking. There’s too much oil everywhere to even bother looking yet. There’s 6 months to fabricate a front snowplough and add a winch so that shouldn’t be a problem. You’re supposed to find hobbies when you’re retired.
I also thought I’d attach a picture of my “other tractor”, a 1968 Agria Drabant. A belt tractor with a one tonne winch. People forget that Norway was a very poor country before the oil. Back then you had to be able to make do. This thing has nothing electric on it with a hand-draulic starter. It’s 14 hp but it replaced 14 actual horses.
Thanks for the help.
Cheers,
Tom
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Welcome to the club Tom
Sounds like the previous mog owner really has been patching her up over the years. I must say, seeing those wooden blocks under the suspension did give me a chuckle. Your 411 should serve you nicely for your jobs you have for it. I'm looking forward to seeing some pics of her hard at work ☺
Casto
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with the gears on this....... on my 404 I had a similar problem to start with, the low two, nearest you, 1&2, then in neutral push lever away one click, then another - quite a long way! but then you must push forward 3rd as mine had a sequencing device so that you had to go to 3 after 2! You cannot short shift - at least on the military 404! There are actually 8 possible gears in there but you have to mod the guts to get them! and reverse only operates in low - dont listen to anyone who says "ah you can take the interlock out and get high reverse" its bulls$$t! as the reverse gear is on the low range shaft... ask me how i know!!
If you want to take the top cover off to play...... park or jack the back of the vehicle so the gearbox is level, it normally slopes down towards the rear, that way when inside the box it prevents all the dogs sliding rearward every time you try and line the lid up! Bitter experience!
This is all assuming yours is similar to the 4041
Phil.
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Brian,
There’s no boar hunting in Norway that I know of, though there’s a lot in southern Sweden. I’ve only hunted boar in France and there, fitness isn’t really an issue, accuracy is the real issue. A wounded boar is more than just dangerous.
At first I thought the reason for the blocks some sort of compensation for weak springs. A big reason for the manuals is to find out what it used to look like. The blocks will come off when I confirm it won’t affect the new engine clearance and what the original mount looks like.
I didn’t realize that it’s a long wheel base model, how short is the short one? Also it’s no longer a canvas top but sports a custom/homemade hard top. There will be a lot of panel cutting and replacement.
The rear lift is definitely non-standard, the cut out in the cross member is a dead giveaway. It’s functional but because of the restrictions in the hydraulic system, that and the 3-way tip bed are very slow.
Thanks for your help.
Cheers,
Tom
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Looks to me like the difflocks have been converter to air???
Those manuals will do the trick, I must admit though they go very little into any technical detail, no shimming up info etc.
Never thought about moose but I've always wanted to go boar hunting in Norway, have to be very fit i believe?
Working is what mog's we're built for :) I'm currently restoring a 1965 411 for a customer and it's having the lot done, will be very posh when it's done, but won't be worked at all.
The blocks under the springs are not standard, if it is for clearance for the engine, I would keep an eye on your torque tube angle. it could be that when offroading it will become too steep and cause damage to the torque tube coupling/drive shaft/dampers. Ideally the blocks want removing.
The chassis plate tells me only what you already know I'm afraid, it's a canvas top 411 long wheel-base.
I would think looking at the back body it has a u600 body on it, it looks very wide, I could be wrong though.
My dad (moose on here) has size 12-13 feet and drive's his 411-118 :D
Do you have a closer picture of the rear linkage? the power arm doesn't look standard.
Cheers, Brian
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Brian,
I got a good laugh when you wrote, “The problem with your gears could be that the selector cover has been taken off and not been put back on properly”. Did I mention modifications & Heath Robinson? The guy who did all of the work liked to use what he had to hand. If it meant cobbling together various bits to make it reach – so be it. When the guy I bought it from got his hands on it everything worked, after a fashion. But he didn’t learn all the tricks and contortions so couldn’t pass them on. Apparently at one time it was clocked at over 70 kmph. It’s going to be interesting getting everything working.
I followed the Unimog Museum link and got to these two books:
Unimog Workshop Manual 421 411 - 30 402 21 03
https://www.buchundbild.de/de/Unimog-Workshop-Manual-421-411-30-402-21-03
Instruction Manual Unimog 411 - 402 51 02
https://www.buchundbild.de/de/Instruction-Manual-Unimog-411-402-51-02
Is this what you meant?
I live in the back and beyond so the 411 will be used for a lot of things, fire wood and snow plowing, the roads flood out quite frequently, too deep for my Navara but the 411 should be fine. Then there’s other uses. It has already been requisitioned for potato planting and plucking. Moose hunting is a big thing here and I have been told to have it fueled up during hunting season. It’s been here a couple of weeks and there’s a lot of visitors with plans for it. It won’t end up a trailer queen.
The manuals are really going to be handy to figure out what’s stock and what modifications need improvement.
A couple more questions.
The front springs seem to have been raised on blocks is this normal or is just to raise the cab maybe for clearance for the new engine?
Does this chassis marker tell you anything you think I should know?
Here’s a picture that shows the controls and gives you an idea of the interesting hydraulic routing.
Finally the last dumb question. What shoe size are you supposed to have to drive this? My boots are a normal size 11 ½ and don’t really fit in.
Thanks for your help
Cheers,
Tom
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Hi Tom, welcome to the forum.
The problem with your gears could be that the selector cover has been taken off and not been put back on properly, they are quite tricky, however Moose will know more on the subject than me. It could also be that you are not pushing it completely over the gate, sometimes the gate is like a double step, so the gear lever sit's on the gate, if the gear stick doesnt wobble between the 3-4/5-6 gates then i'd assume this to be the case. So a good knock to the side might well be in order.
You can get workshop manuals from the Unimog museum, being a 64 yours will be a 411b (originally 32ps), you may also be able to get an operators manual.
I would change all fluids and filters, including (especially) brake fluids, a good upgrade is to take the master and slave cylinders off and send them of to be lined with a stainless steel lining.
Depending on how much it's been used recently it may also be a good idea to change the flexi lines on the brakes, these have a bad habit of furring up if the mog's not been used or the brake fluid hasn't been changed in a while.
The 411 is a good purchase, what are your plans for it?
Cheers, Brian ;D
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I just bought a ’64 411 that was heavily modified by one of the previous owners. Some of the modifications seem OK. For example it has a different engine from an early Nisan Navara, non-turbo of something like 70hp, a different hydraulic pump system and hydraulic power steering.
Some of the modifications are a bit Heath Robinson though, for example there are three hydraulic reservoirs and the air tank is an old fire extinguisher. Also, in order to get the engine in, he modified the control linkages.
So I have a couple of questions to get me started in getting it operating in good order.
The first is shifting into the higher gears – 3 to 6, Villager you wrote a very good post where you said:
Between the working gears and the road gears there is a gate that you need to tap the gear stick over to get to that set of gears. http://www.unimog.club/tutorials/u411u404-gear-levers/
The thing is I can get it over to where the higher gears should be but can’t get it in to any of them. This could be:
A) Because I am not doing it right, is there a trick I don’t know?
B) I need to repair all the linkages first.
The next question is what books and manuals would you recommend and where can I get them. There is a lot of work that needs to be done and I have to figure out what are modifications and what is original.
There are a few things that should be done as priorities changing all the fluids and finding all the leaks, blockages and restrictions. I suppose back brakes would also be a good thing.
Thanks for your help.
Cheers,
Tom